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Toot (6644)
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Winter 2011/2012 Pattern Discussion

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Winter 2011/2012 Pattern Discussion - Page 33 Empty Re: Winter 2011/2012 Pattern Discussion

Post by Toot 2012-01-29, 6:22 pm

John1122 wrote:
The GFS ens also initialize with a strongly positive AO on his site. The Euro is the only one who initializes properly there.


I have nearly quit looking at those indice forecast's... as they have been almost dead wrong all winter. Those forecasts gave several false signals (Terribly wrong) of the AO/NAO going neg over at huffmans back in Dec and JAN. Initializing wrong might explain all the horrible forecasts they have been giving this winter. yikes

They were very helpful last winter...im not sure what is messing with them now?


Last edited by Toot on 2012-01-29, 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Stovepipe 2012-01-29, 6:25 pm

Yeah I'm just enjoying watching the current observed indices widget on our site. Looking very tasty right now.
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Post by jmundie 2012-01-29, 6:41 pm

I'm looking at the chart that Ryan produces vs the CPC one.

Most of the time, they are very close. But recently, Ryan's charts have gone way negative, while the CPC's charts have stayed neutral/positive

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Post by Toot 2012-01-29, 6:47 pm

The AO is pretty close at the CPC website and over at Ryan Maue's....both are pretty much in the tank but the NAO is very different. Im not sure which is correct either...with the AO being so far in the tank I would imagine the NAO would be negative on the index.... but thats not the case over at the CPC's website...they show it neutral while Ryan Maue shows it negative.


Last edited by Toot on 2012-01-29, 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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Post by jmundie 2012-01-29, 9:21 pm

Got an answer from Ryan on twitter.

@RyanMaue: @justinmundie I use the first EOF of MSLP in the North Atlantic sector for NAO. CPC uses 500 hPa geopotential for teleconnections

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Post by Toot 2012-01-29, 9:45 pm

I imagine the CPC's NAO value would be more handy when talking or thinking about a 500mb pattern then, since Ryan uses sea level pressure. They should both equal out to some degree though... when blocking is present.

We all know that a pattern dont get favorable just because of some numbers on an index...thats why the CPC's values would be more valuable to me
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Post by jmundie 2012-01-29, 9:57 pm

I wonder if his values might be a leading indicator... If it starts trending negative, you can expect the cpc numbers to follow?

I have noticed more pronounced high pressure over Greenland and eastern Canada the last couple runs. It's like the models want to destroy it, but it keeps hanging on. Hopefully, that's a good sign. Really worried the arctic plunge next week will leave us in a dry nw flow, with hope only for a moist clipper or quick amplification, and no deep, negative tilt storms (though coastal Carolina would likely do well in that scenario)

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Post by Stovepipe 2012-01-29, 10:18 pm

Man, AmericanWX turned the exuberance level up to 11. It's refreshing to hear the mets and other knowledgeable people over there getting fired up in a positive way about the pattern for a change.

The entire Southeastern States forum is:

Winter 2011/2012 Pattern Discussion - Page 33 2dhi3q1

Odds are by 12z tomorrow there will be a tumble weed rolling through the forum as everyone will have cut themselves and jumped off a cliff.
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Post by Stovepipe 2012-01-29, 10:32 pm

We've certainly entered the Twilight Zone this winter. Don Sutherland is forecasting cold anomalies.

Thoughts for the 2/8-15/2012 Timeframe:

For the first time this winter, my medium-term forecast shows cold anomalies in the eastern U.S., southern Ontario, and southern Quebec. There is risk that a warmer outcome could still unfold and much will depend on the Arctic Oscillation. Currently, there is a huge spread among the ensemble members for the AO.

The following chart shows (clockwise):

1. The composite temperature anomalies for ENSO Region 3.4 anomalies in the -1.45°C to -0.65°C range, an AO in the -1.25 to -0.25 range, and the PNA in a +0.25 to +1.25 range.

2. The 1/29/2012 0z GFS Ensemble forecast of the Arctic Oscillation.

3. Composite temperature anomalies for MJO Phase 8 (Amplitude 1-2) during La Niñas in February.

4. The Objective Analogs centered on 2/9 rolled forward 3 days (GFS ensembles).

Winter 2011/2012 Pattern Discussion - Page 33 Oanbd4

I'm pretty much in agreement with the chart based on the teleconnections (1st one). The only adjustment would be that Maine and possibly eastern Canada could be near normal to slightly above normal based on a combination of the blocking and decadal observed warming in that area for February. More than likely, this cold period won't lock in. Instead, it will be similar to what happened a little earlier in January where periodic cold shots occurred over a 7-14-day period before the warmth regained hold. The magnitude of the cold shots might be similar and possibly somewhat less harsh. As a result, my February forecast continues to call for widespread warm anomalies.

Winter 2011/2012 Pattern Discussion - Page 33 35de33d

The 1/29/2012 run of the CFSv2 is even more aggressive on the February warm anomalies (virtually all of the U.S. and Canada, including Alaska).

also

This morning, the AO was -4.441. That is the lowest AO reading since December 19, 2010 when the AO was -4.695. Since 1950, there were 14 prior cases on which the AO fell to -4.000 or below in January. In 13/14 (93%) of those cases, the AO averaged < 0 in February. February 1959 was the lone exception. In 11/14 (79%) of those cases, the AO averaged -1.000 or below in February. In 6/14 (43%) of those cases, the AO averaged -2.000 or below in February. Hence, this latest data gives me strong confidence that the AO will average negative in February, and possibly -1.000 or below.

What is likely to be unprecedented for January 2012 is that none of the prior cases during which the AO fell to -4.000 or below in January had a January AO average > -1.000. The highest January average among those cases was -1.204 in January 1956. January 2012 has had an average AO of +0.069 (1/1-1/29). The month will likely finish with an average AO of -0.200 to -0.100. February 1956 had a monthly AO average of -2.029. Nevertheless, February 1956 saw the eastern portion of the U.S. have warmer than normal readings. Some of the data used for my February 2012 guess was based on February 1956.

Don,

What analogs are you using/weighting the highest right now? I'm curious how the large scale progression in those years compares to what we've seen this year.


1998-99 probably compares closest winter to what has been seen so far this winter but does not necessarily mean that February would be identical to February 1999. 1955-56 has been a rising analog especially with the recent developments related to the AO, 1975-76 is another analog year, and smaller contributions were taken from 1970-71 and 1995-96. What happened in the past 1-2 months is one factor, but a small one. How the pattern has evolved in the current month is far more important factor e.g., the breakdown of the AO+ regime is a key development. Then assumptions about various parameters for the month ahead is another. Adjustments are then made given my confidence in a variety of ensemble solutions (ENSO, MJO, anomalies, etc.) and also the observed decadal temperature trend in various parts of North America.

FWIW, the monthly map for February based on the latest objective analog years (1957, 1970, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1993, 1998, and 2005) also shows widespread warm anomalies. The possible message from that composite is that the objective analogs might be highlighting a period of cold embedded in a larger period of warmth. Time will tell.


1956 is among a number of cases that I used in coming up with my February idea. I give some weight to past months, a lot of weight to the current month, and also factor in my expectations for the coming month. I'll be curious to see if 1956 remains relevant for March, as March 1956 was a fun month for cold and snow.
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Post by Stovepipe 2012-01-30, 2:38 pm

Stovepipe wrote:Re AmericanWx: Odds are by 12z tomorrow there will be a tumble weed rolling through the forum as everyone will have cut themselves and jumped off a cliff.

Verified.

What a Face

Also it seems the HPC is sending more flights to the Pacific to sample the features out there presumably to get a better handle on potential winter storms.
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Post by jmundie 2012-01-30, 4:06 pm

I hope it brings good news. This gigantic cut off over the panhandle of texas thing is getting pretty old.

Plus - how often have we seen a trough from new mexico to michigan, with warmth to the nw and se?

Something still isn't adding up here. Whatever it is, it may be worse for us than what's being modeled, but I'm not sure I buy this solution.

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Post by snowdog 2012-01-30, 5:24 pm

12z Ensembles weren't all that great either. Minus a couple of good model runs a day or two ago I haven't seen anything to get too excited about (well I guess there is crazy old uncle NOGAPS to fall back on)....yet. Euro Ens shows the long range cold dumping too far east to really do anything for us. GFS ensemble members are still undecided on just how much cold we will have to work with.

I think this may be a deal where we won't see a good set-up evolve until the mid to late month (if then) and by then it is just not a good time for this area (middle-TN). Probably will waste a good pattern at the end of Feb beginning of March and get a cold spring.

I'm still in the Winter Cancel boat. Save the cold and snow for next year after the cards have been reshuffled.

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Post by tennessee storm09 2012-01-30, 5:39 pm

snowdog wrote:12z Ensembles weren't all that great either. Minus a couple of good model runs a day or two ago I haven't seen anything to get too excited about (well I guess there is crazy old uncle NOGAPS to fall back on)....yet. Euro Ens shows the long range cold dumping too far east to really do anything for us. GFS ensemble members are still undecided on just how much cold we will have to work with.

I think this may be a deal where we won't see a good set-up evolve until the mid to late month (if then) and by then it is just not a good time for this area (middle-TN). Probably will waste a good pattern at the end of Feb beginning of March and get a cold spring.

I'm still in the Winter Cancel boat. Save the cold and snow for next year after the cards have been reshuffled.
doubt it seriously we see a cool spring with the nina still going, though a weak one... but still should pop a se ridge late winter going tn to spring. i really feel like the artic air lurking at all this spring will only aid into the severe threat as the artic air will get hung up to our north anyways... prime classic battle of the air masses taking shap this spring. sneaky

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Post by snowdog 2012-01-30, 6:04 pm

By the way Tom or Biscuits and Gravy or whatever his new name will be in the future...I propose, FROM THIS YEAR FORWARD HE WILL NEVER...EVER...BE ALLOWED TO START ANOTHER WINTER 20XX PATTERN DISCUSSION THREAD. Sorry Tom but somewhere somehow you have angered Old Man Winter. Not just for this area either, you screwed pretty much the whole country.

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Post by tennessee storm09 2012-01-30, 6:09 pm

snowdog wrote:By the way Tom or Biscuits and Gravy or whatever his new name will be in the future...I propose, FROM THIS YEAR FORWARD HE WILL NEVER...EVER...BE ALLOWED TO START ANOTHER WINTER 20XX PATTERN DISCUSSION THREAD. Sorry Tom but somewhere somehow you have angered Old Man Winter. Not just for this area either, you screwed pretty much the whole country.
lol lol!

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Post by Guest 2012-01-30, 6:19 pm

snowdog wrote:By the way Tom or Biscuits and Gravy or whatever his new name will be in the future...I propose, FROM THIS YEAR FORWARD HE WILL NEVER...EVER...BE ALLOWED TO START ANOTHER WINTER 20XX PATTERN DISCUSSION THREAD. Sorry Tom but somewhere somehow you have angered Old Man Winter. Not just for this area either, you screwed pretty much the whole country.

facepalm

My apologies.... its that dang Memphis pyramid that I was messing with back in early December.. I meant to make it even snowier/colder than Toot's original call, but it went haywire. Same thing happened during a possible snowstorm last year as well. It was within 3 days of happening, and I messed with the great weather changing Pyramid, and clicked the wrong buttons and it turned the Snowstorm into a cold rain lol.

sauce

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Post by Toot 2012-01-30, 6:28 pm

snowdog wrote:well I guess there is crazy old uncle NOGAPS to fall back on

lmao lmao
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Post by Stovepipe 2012-01-30, 9:04 pm

Good news from American:


Wow. Holy -NAO block on the weeklies. Holds strong from Week 2 through Week 4. I don't have the temp anomalies, only H5 this week, but would be a much more conducive pattern if it verifies. Standby until Thursday to see if this is hiccup or not.

Week 2 is a +PNA with an east based -NAO, Week 3 is a -EPO/-NAO, and Week 4 is -PNA/-NAO

popcorn
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Post by Toot 2012-01-30, 9:46 pm

Yep its not only the euro weeklies but some of the other longer range (CFS etc) ensemble systems are now also showing the colder look here
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Post by Stovepipe 2012-01-31, 4:05 pm

Enjoy one of the last free posts from Robert before he starts charging for his new site next week:

http://wxsouth.com/?p=95

No more americanwx/Robert copy/pasta. I'll probably pony up and pay his fee during the winter months. He's one of the best mets you'll find for this region.
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Post by tennessee storm09 2012-01-31, 9:10 pm

met. joe lundberg doesnt seem to excited about the pattern that the ensembles are showing after this week... he is saying the bulk of the cold air will go west, like to asia and europe again... and he is saying what does change wont last more than a week at best... back to a zonal flow, pos. nao ao and much milder air he is saying...., i hope he is wrong, but to be honest with you, the man is one of the best in the weather buisness.. i have read his blogs for many years, and been pretty much spot on.

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Post by snowdog 2012-01-31, 9:17 pm

I could see Lunberg being correct. 10 day Euro ens mean shows the bulk of lower 500mb heights over the other side of the hemi. Just not our year. It willl just make next years snow that much sweeter.

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Post by Toot 2012-01-31, 9:25 pm

Yeah I dont expect the cold to last but a couple of weeks during the middle of Feb... after the PNA ridge thats modeled breaks down... there wont be much of winter left to hold on to.
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Post by Stovepipe 2012-01-31, 10:58 pm

Robert:

Well I didn't mean to sound like I'm not optimistic later on, just pointing out that its a false early start...again. I do think we'll have a better pattern mid month and probably later in Feb, but we still have to wait a while. The models built up the northwest portion of the west Canada ridge too tall, and way too fast. Instead its getting knocked down initially and rolling toward southern Canada and that causes the trough in Canada that was going to drop into the east, instead to drop more into the extreme Northeast and the Atlantic ocean. Several hundred mile miss there if not a thousand miles. The ensembles did just as badly for the weekend, but eventually I think it will finally get colder. It may happen after the Gulf system around Feb 10 to 12, and that goes up the coast pulling down much colder air. The fast flow and strong Alaskan vortex this season has been hard to make a good western ridge, and the fast flow and lack of blocking in Atlantic is skewing the models, causing pretty big errors around day 7 and beyond. The cold continues to avoid the Southeast. I'm still optimistic that nature evens out later on with a complete flip (western ridge +Greenland blocking ) which would be a good pattern to finally comine cold and storm track. That might come mid month (or begin around the time GFS and ECMWF develop the Gulf system). We will wait and see, since its going to be hard to forecast cold air , until it staring you in the face this season.

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Post by Homemommy 2012-02-01, 8:10 am

I saw on the news this morning that Chicago is having the warmest winter in 80 years. A bunch of states broke like 40 records this week.
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