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"Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

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"Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-21, 2:12 pm

"Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

http://ncse.com/news/2012/03/monkey-bill-passes-tennessee-senate-007264

"The Senate approved a bill Monday evening that deals with teaching of evolution and other scientific theories," the Knoxville News-Sentinel (March 19, 2012) reported, adding, "Critics call it a 'monkey bill' that promotes creationism in classrooms." The bill in question is Senate Bill 893, which, if enacted, would encourage teachers to present the "scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses" of "controversial" topics such as "biological evolution, the chemical origins of life, global warming, and human cloning."

Among those expressing opposition to the bill are the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Civil Liberties Union of Tennessee, the American Institute for Biological Sciences, the Knoxville News Sentinel, the Nashville Tennessean, the National Association of Geoscience Teachers, the National Earth Science Teachers Association, and the Tennessee Science Teachers Association, whose president Becky Ashe described (PDF) the legislation as "unnecessary, anti-scientific, and very likely unconstitutional."

The Senate vote was 24-8. According to the Tennesseean (March 20, 2012), Andy Berke (D-District 10) "noted the state’s history as a battleground over evolution — the so-called Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925 drew national attention and inspired the Oscar-winning film Inherit the Wind — and said the measure would cast Tennessee in a bad light." Berke also objected that the bill would encourage inappropriate discussions of religious matters, saying, "If my children ask, ‘How does that mesh with my faith?’ I don’t want their teacher answering that question."

The bill now proceeds to the House of Representatives, which passed the counterpart House Bill 368 on April 7, 2011. SB 893 was amended in committee before it passed the Senate, however, so the two houses of the legislature will have to resolve the discrepancies between the bills. Tennessee's governor Bill Haslam previously indicated that he would discuss the bill with the state board of education, telling the Tennesseean (March 19, 2012), "It is a fair question what the General Assembly’s role is ... That’s why we have a state board of education."

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by snowdog on 2012-03-22, 8:11 am

Teachers should already be giving the strengths and weaknesses of any theory. Far too many times though, in classrooms I've been in, teachers would try and pawn of the theory of evolution as fact and not give the other side. I think there are many merits to micro-evolution but there is a lot left to be desired with macro-evolution. I honestly don't have any strong feelings one way or the other in regards to evolution vs creationism. Right now I'd fall more in line with a creator although it wouldn't be the biblical creation story.

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Adam2014 on 2012-03-22, 8:27 am

snowdog wrote:Teachers should already be giving the strengths and weaknesses of any theory. Far too many times though, in classrooms I've been in, teachers would try and pawn of the theory of evolution as fact and not give the other side. I think there are many merits to micro-evolution but there is a lot left to be desired with macro-evolution. I honestly don't have any strong feelings one way or the other in regards to evolution vs creationism. Right now I'd fall more in line with a creator although it wouldn't be the biblical creation story.
Just interested to know, what creation story would you follow. This is all intresting me and I am not trying to start and argument.

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by snowdog on 2012-03-22, 8:45 am

There isn't a certain "story" I follow. I see the complexity and beauty in life and think that a random chaotic bang could not bring forth that complexity and beauty (even with millions of years to work with). Thus in my mind there has to be a creator.

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Toot on 2012-03-22, 8:47 am


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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-22, 8:47 am

snowdog wrote:Teachers should already be giving the strengths and weaknesses of any theory. Far too many times though, in classrooms I've been in, teachers would try and pawn of the theory of evolution as fact and not give the other side. I think there are many merits to micro-evolution but there is a lot left to be desired with macro-evolution. I honestly don't have any strong feelings one way or the other in regards to evolution vs creationism. Right now I'd fall more in line with a creator although it wouldn't be the biblical creation story.

I'm curious, so you fall in line with a creator based on what, your feelings? That is perfectly fine, but in a science classroom I can't think of any logical reason at all why the science of evolution shouldn't be taught. If there are weaker areas of the science then of course, that should be illustrated as well, that is what science is all about. If there is scientific evidence of a creator then that should be part of the curriculum as well. I just don't see how this issue of evolution in the classroom is even up for debate in the year 2012.


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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Toot on 2012-03-22, 8:50 am

I dont have a problem with them teaching it just as long as they make it VERY clear that it is a theory and not a fact

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-22, 8:57 am

Toot wrote:I dont have a problem with them teaching it just as long as they make it VERY clear that it is a theory and not a fact

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Yep, that's science.
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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Toot on 2012-03-22, 9:06 am

Lol...whats that supposed to imply?

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-22, 9:08 am

Toot wrote:Lol...whats that supposed to imply?

I was agreeing with your statement "I dont have a problem with them teaching it just as long as they make it VERY clear that it is a theory and not a fact". That is pretty much what science is about.
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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by snowdog on 2012-03-22, 9:20 am

Stovepipe wrote:I'm curious, so you fall in line with a creator based on what, your feelings? That is perfectly fine, but in a science classroom I can't think of any logical reason at all why the science of evolution shouldn't be taught. If there are weaker areas of the science then of course, that should be illustrated as well, that is what science is all about. If there is scientific evidence of a creator then that should be part of the curriculum as well. I just don't see how this issue of evolution in the classroom is even up for debate in the year 2012.

I'm not saying they should teach creationism or a creator. I'm saying there are some teachers that I have had that teach evolution as if it is 100% legit. What I'm saying is, teachers should give the good with the bad on the theory of evolution (which it looks like we agree on). I think the lack of scientific evidence for a "big bangish" type event leads to the ultimate conclusion of there being some type of creator.

As for the bill itself, I see some merit to it but I don't think it was necessary. Like one person said in the article, it is probably something that could have been handled by the board of education.

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-22, 9:25 am

snowdog wrote:
Stovepipe wrote:I'm curious, so you fall in line with a creator based on what, your feelings? That is perfectly fine, but in a science classroom I can't think of any logical reason at all why the science of evolution shouldn't be taught. If there are weaker areas of the science then of course, that should be illustrated as well, that is what science is all about. If there is scientific evidence of a creator then that should be part of the curriculum as well. I just don't see how this issue of evolution in the classroom is even up for debate in the year 2012.

I'm not saying they should teach creationism or a creator. I'm saying there are some teachers that I have had that teach evolution as if it is 100% legit. What I'm saying is, teachers should give the good with the bad on the theory of evolution (which it looks like we agree on). I think the lack of scientific evidence for a "big bangish" type event leads to the ultimate conclusion of there being some type of creator.

As for the bill itself, I see some merit to it but I don't think it was necessary. Like one person said in the article, it is probably something that could have been handled by the board of education.

Gotcha. Very Happy
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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by jmundie on 2012-03-22, 10:25 am

Evolution is an accepted theory. Which means, it probably isn't exactly right, but it explains a lot. Almost all of our knowledge of biology comes from the theory of evolution being at its core. Just like Einsteins Theory of Relativity is at the core of our physics. It's probably not 100% true, cause this stuff is complex, but it yields a basis by which we build science and discover new stuff.

Focusing on the idea that something is a "theory" as a means of saying other hypothesises have equal scientific validity is moronic, and par for the course in our backwards tennessee legislature (I'm looking at you Stacey Campfield and your disastrous grammar and spelling, your oppressive backwards laws against homosexuals, and your general disdain for anyone who has actually come to a conclusion based on reason and logic)

Evolution is not 100% settled, but most of its conclusions are backed up by evidence, so in my opinion, its ok to talk about it in a mostly fact based setting, just like we do with the theory of relativity.

That being said, origins of life, a question that evolution doesn't even attempt to answer, despite the strawmen seeking fundamentalists desires, is a philosophical and theological one as much as it is a scientific one. And the big bang is a possible idea for how life formed, but until it can be replicated in a lab, or shown through fossil evidence, it remains more out there than the idea of macro evolution.

That being said - I like to think I'm devoted to following Jesus, yet I don't fear science or its conclusions and I don't reject them. The bible was never meant to be a science textbook, and trying to read it that way is like reading the yellow pages for spiritual insight.

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-22, 10:29 am

jmundie wrote:Evolution is an accepted theory. Which means, it probably isn't exactly right, but it explains a lot. Almost all of our knowledge of biology comes from the theory of evolution being at its core. Just like Einsteins Theory of Relativity is at the core of our physics. It's probably not 100% true, cause this stuff is complex, but it yields a basis by which we build science and discover new stuff.

Focusing on the idea that something is a "theory" as a means of saying other hypothesises have equal scientific validity is moronic, and par for the course in our backwards tennessee legislature (I'm looking at you Stacey Campfield and your disastrous grammar and spelling, your oppressive backwards laws against homosexuals, and your general disdain for anyone who has actually come to a conclusion based on reason and logic)

Evolution is not 100% settled, but most of its conclusions are backed up by evidence, so in my opinion, its ok to talk about it in a mostly fact based setting, just like we do with the theory of relativity.

That being said, origins of life, a question that evolution doesn't even attempt to answer, despite the strawmen seeking fundamentalists desires, is a philosophical and theological one as much as it is a scientific one. And the big bang is a possible idea for how life formed, but until it can be replicated in a lab, or shown through fossil evidence, it remains more out there than the idea of macro evolution.

That being said - I like to think I'm devoted to following Jesus, yet I don't fear science or its conclusions and I don't reject them. The bible was never meant to be a science textbook, and trying to read it that way is like reading the yellow pages for spiritual insight.

I like the way you talk.



Good post, you are on a roll!
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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by jmundie on 2012-03-22, 10:37 am

I should add the theory of gravity and our theories of the structure of atoms and subatomic particles as well. It can be tested and there's evidence for it, but it can't be proven, and we may not fully understand it.

But we build our science around those things. We teach them as accepted theories because they help us explain our world.

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by snowdog on 2012-03-22, 10:38 am

jmundie wrote:And the big bang is a possible idea for how life formed, but until it can be replicated in a lab, or shown through fossil evidence, it remains more out there than the idea of macro evolution.

Probably be a good idea not to replicate the big bang. yikes

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-22, 10:41 am

snowdog wrote:
jmundie wrote:And the big bang is a possible idea for how life formed, but until it can be replicated in a lab, or shown through fossil evidence, it remains more out there than the idea of macro evolution.

Probably be a good idea not to replicate the big bang. yikes

Give us a few more years.



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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Homemommy on 2012-03-22, 10:42 am

I second that. Very smart, that Mundie. All I know is, that studying our bodies and the way our systems work, it doesn't seem that such complex organs, like our brains and my god, our eyes, could be the work of the big bang. But I accept that evolution happens all around us every day. We just don't see it. Aside from the organic theories about the origins of life and our planet, I see evolution in our societies and the way the World works. The way we manufacture products, our monetary system, cultural advancements, technology, language, everything. Is that not evolution on a small scale?

I don't know. I don't really know enough about this topic to discuss it intelligently. I do know that I don't believe our planet is 6,000 years old.

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Homemommy on 2012-03-22, 11:23 am




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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-22, 11:28 am

LMAO!
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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-22, 11:37 am

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-22, 11:40 am

Monkey Bill

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Toot on 2012-03-22, 5:17 pm

All aspects of gravity have been proven to my knowledge

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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Homemommy on 2012-03-22, 5:26 pm

Toot wrote:All aspects of gravity have been proven to my knowledge

You sure about that, Toot?




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Re: "Monkey bill" passes Tennessee Senate

Post by Stovepipe on 2012-03-22, 5:34 pm

Toot wrote:All aspects of gravity have been proven to my knowledge

The effects of gravity are predictable yes, but we pretty much have no clue how that force works.
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